So, this one might get a little wall-of-text-y. Immediately after posting my Questions from a DAYDian post I got more questions from the same anonymous reader. And again, I think it deserves a reply, especially since I know there are plenty of Wankas out there with similar questions. Lucky for you the time change means my toddler fell asleep an hour early and I actually have a little time. If you don’t already know the back-story of Bit of Earth, Tentmoot, Project Elanor and so on, you should probably just skip this post. I’ll get to real posts about them eventually – given how many new readers I have, probably sooner than later. But this post is just a quick and dirty one. I’m just going to answer the questions as best I can and go to bed. I’m only making a post of it so nobody has to go fishing through the comments for it.
It's been a long week.
1. Did Andrew steal money from Reading is Fundamental or other charities?
No. No money was stolen from any charity. The Project Elanor event and the showing of Sean Astin’s film The Long and Short Of It and Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers were supposed to result in a donation to Reading is Fundamental. The event was badly run for many reasons, some of which I’m not that sure about. As far as I believed, we had volunteers back out. Given what I know now, I assume that Andrew lied or exaggerated how much work people had volunteered to do. At any rate, we had incompetent amateurs (read: Jordan and I) running a complex project, and it got expensive. Most of the plants were bought, at full retail price, at the last minute, or after the event. It was absurdly expensive, and all the money that was made in tickets to the movie screening went to pay the bills. At said movie, I did announce that we had made $3000, and that proceeds would go to Reading is Fundamental. There were not proceeds. I put in all the money I had at the time too. That is one part that Andrew has been consistently honest about, but considering how many lies he told about everything else I don’t blame people for not believing it.
It will get multiple posts with the full story. Later.
2. Was TentMoot a scam?
Nope. I know it’s been lost in all the drama, the upset, the wank, the pain and this sudden upwelling of peacemaking and healing, but we were a fan club. Yes, Andrew was using the fanclub to find his victims. But we were still fans. Geeks, who used to debate about Tolkein and squee about movie trailers. We wanted to throw a convention. Andrew made us believe it was possible. Seriously, that’s how he got the reputation of being a con-artist. People remember the way he would just say anything to get them to give him the money. But all the money we got went directly to the convention. And of course the motivation to throw a convention was to meet the actors. That’s part of why people go to fucking conventions. The fact that some of us believed that Andrew was secretly Elijah Wood? Means we were really fucking creepy fans. But that doesn’t make it a scam. The lies Jordan told to try to push everything through on the hope that it was somehow work out fell apart like the house of cards they were.
Yes, this one too.
3. Was he or you or BitofEarth convicted of any crimes?
No. Andrew was arrested for identity theft, but the charges were subsequently dropped. He spent one night in jail, traveled legally back to California, and then returned to Oregon for his court date, which is when we found out the case had been dropped. Andrew and I were investigated by the Department of Justice regarding Jeanine’s claims of charity fraud. We signed a voluntary agreement that said all over it that it wasn’t an admission of wrongdoing. The charges on it were that we didn’t have written authorization from Reading is Fundamental to use their name on any fundraising events and that we had held a raffle without being a registered charitable organization. I think there was something else too, but I can’t seem to find my copy at the moment. It was something equally minor. The only lasting consequence of the agreement is that I am not allowed to solicit donations for any charity in the state of Oregon. Neither is Andrew. Since BoE was never an “official” organization, there were no charges against it.
I feel like I've told this part of the story a thousand times, but there's definitely no end in sight.
4. Did he stalk or steal from the LotR actors?
No. He read voraciously and lied a lot about his “insider knowledge.” He did attempt to contact a lot of actors, first when we tried to host a convention, and again when he sent out that ridiculous Civil Cease & Desist thing. I don’t really understand how this “stealing from the actors” thing came from. We did end up having three actors from the movie sleeping on our floor for one night, and that was a really miserable, humiliating, awkward experience. We were making regular payments to them for the money they unexpectedly had to spend when the convention (and their hotel rooms and return tickets) were canceled. I know we paid most of the money back, but after a few months of living in hotel rooms we just couldn’t keep it together.
I think I'll have a drink.
5. Did he have a heart condition?
No. Not when we were together and not according to his parents.
6. Is his art a scam?
I can’t answer that question, it’s too vague. When I was with him, he was not selling his art. His talent is pretty well documented in lots of places. Some of his artwork since he’s moved into Harry Potter (during the time he was selling them) are unquestionably either tracings or photomanipulations. He’s good, but he’s not that good. Other artwork I’ve seen is definitely his own work. I’ve seen enough of it (and still have a half-drawer of it) that I know the style. He is lying when he’s claiming they were all done by hand, but on the scale of lies he tells that barely registers. I think it’s dishonest to pass off photomanips as original art in any case. I don’t know if that makes it a “scam” or not. He’s an artistically talented liar; it’s not surprising at all that some of his artwork is also dishonest.
7. Was he running scams in the Harry Potter fandom? (Apart from the backstory/identity he created to Not Be Amy)
Don’t know, but probably no. I believe he’s running the cult there. He’s not a scam artist. He’s a cult leader. He lies to get money on occasion if necessary, but not as a career or to the point where there are “scams.” He’s pretty incompetent at any real-world responsibilities, so a lot of things he’s involved in fall apart. He’s generally more interested in the intense personal relationships, and he’s so grandiose that he fakes a ton of knowledge and thus doesn’t know what the hell he’s doing a lot of the time.
Wait...
8. Was he responsible for Brittany Quinn’s murder?
I can’t possibly answer that. I never met Brittany Quinn. I’ve never met or corresponded in any way with anyone involved in the DAYDverse until these last two posts. I don’t know anything about Brittany’s marriage, about Jason Eisenberg, about what was going on in that house that night. I was sickened and horrified when I saw that post on Jeanine’s blog. What I know from here is that Andrew pulled me in when my marriage was falling apart. I know the ways he instigates trouble. The way he is domineering and overly confident when he suggests courses of action, like writing “legal threat” letters. He did that after M and I divorced; Andrew wrote (and I signed) a letter threatening to take M to small claims court if he didn’t pay me the alimony he owed me by some date.
This whole thing makes me so sad. Here are som LOLturtles.
There’s nothing illegal about that; it wasn’t a completely insane thing to do, to threaten to take your ex to court for money he actually owes you. I don’t know the situation with Brittany and Eisenberg, so I cannot possibly say what he was putting in those letters. But yes I definitely think he was behind them, directly or indirectly. It’s such a recurrent pattern; just off of the top of my head I can think of five or six times he came up with some kind of “legal document” or annoying empty threat of legal action. I also know that Andrew made me believe that I had been badly abused as a child (I was not), and managed to very successfully undermine the tail end of my marriage to M. There was obviously something seriously wrong if Eisenberg showed up with that gun. That’s not just an unhappy marriage. So do I think that morally Andrew is responsible for those deaths? Pretty much. I don’t know that Eisenberg wouldn’t have ended up doing something like this if Andrew hadn’t been involved. But the fact is, Andrew was there, and the circumstantial evidence (plus his behavior int he wake of her murder) makes me believe he probably escalated an unstable situation. I actually am surprised it didn’t happen sooner; he leaves such a wake of hurt and anger that it’s not surprising there was violence. The only person responsible for Brittany Quinn’s death is Jason Eisenberg, who pulled the trigger.
9. Is It’s About Power/the Trail of Tears hike a scam?
Not to my knowledge. See above re: scams.
10. Was the Keyse’s immigration fundraising a scam?
Not to my knowledge. It’s very typical behavior for Andrew to overlook important financial details. Like permits. Like immigration paperwork. I just wrote about how he got us stranded on the Canadian border. I assume that it’s a legitimate need, although probably something that could have been avoided with a little bit of foresight.
11. Do you have any knowledge of any scams he is currently trying to perpetrate on the Daydians or knowledge that the Daydverse is part of a scam?
Nope. See above comments on him not being a scam artist but a cult leader.
12. Do you have any knowledge of any other activities he is currently pursuing that are scams? (Again, apart from the “I was never Amy”)
Nope. See above.
13, Has he made any other efforts to affect your life or that of anyone else involved in BoE?
Aside from the PTSD and damaged lives he left behind? No. He cuts his losses and moves on.
14. Is he wanted by the police?
Not to my knowledge.
15. Did he really steal tens of thousands of dollars from Turimel and other BoE people?
No. See the answers above regarding Tentmoot, RiF, etc.
This is taking so much longer than I thought it would.
16. Is his current legal identity fraudulent/do you know if he’s made any steps towards actually transitioning FtM?
He did legally change his name to Andrew Blake while we were in California, and as far as I know his Virginia ID was legal last time I saw it. I don’t know anything beyond that. As for transitioning? That is seriously not anybody’s business. I answered the question about his sexual identity with several reasons why I don’t want to go there and it’s just offensive that you would ask that. I said I’d answer any questions, but the answer to that one is fail.
Serioulsy? No. Come on.
17. Do you like pina coladas?
Not really. They taste like lip balm.
18. Getting caught in the rain?
Yes, but that’s why I live in the Pacific Northwest.
19. Long walks on the beach?
Meh. I grew up on the beach.
20. If he did try to apologize/make amends, is there any form of that which you would accept or which you believe Turimel would accept, and would you both take your stuff off the internet if that happened?
That’s two questions. I won’t speak for Jeanine, so that takes us back down to one. I cannot imagine any way he could apologize or make amends to me or my family. I don’t say never because I don’t know the future, and lots of stuff I never thought could happen have. But it would take a lot. And no, I don’t see that I would take down any of my own work if he did. I don’t expect Jeanine to remove her blog, even though we are making amends. That’s what taking responsibility means; you own your mistakes and live with them. If he was actually making amends, there’s be no reason for me to take it down.
21. Do you think he believes his own stuff? I mean, that he actually BELIEVES that he is in contact with these other worlds, can channel people, has supernatural abilities, etc.
No, I don’t. I think he uses it to deliberately manipulate. The stories are too carefully planned. I think he gets off on seeing how far he can take it. I think he’s 100% aware of what he’s doing. I just think he overestimates how many people he’s fooling.
Ugh. I am so done.
Out of Context 
You are beyond patient. Maybe this’ll do it, eh? 🙂
I sure as hell hope so. I know people have wanted to ask me all sorts of stuff all along, so I do have a lot of patience with it. But damn, sometimes I get sick of saying the same things over and over…maybe I ought to make an FAQ after I get more of my story out. I haven’t even touched BoE because I didn’t want to start there (in the middle of the story). I’ve also been telling the BoE stories ever since BoE happened, since so many people have always asked about that. And that story hasn’t changed all that much over the years because it was true to begin with. I just now can also add “CRAZY” to “LYING” in the explanation.
You can’t make them listen; even asking questions doesn’t mean they’re listening. But a thought occurred to me, while I was feeling irritated and impatient on your behalf… 🙂 Maybe this is the moment for this particular person when the crack appears. The questions were loaded and narrow; you answered openly and honestly. Maybe this questioner takes those answers off, stores them away and wakes up some morning (soon?) and says: oh boy, I was so wrong. I am done.
Good job.
That’s my hope.
“The fact that some of us believed that Andrew was secretly Elijah Wood? Means we were really fucking creepy fans.”
Literally did a spit take on this moment Abbey.
Also, your adorable kittens are, adorable. 🙂
-Little Sam
The casual DAYDian sounds a little…invested. 🙂
A very slightly off-topic question: can you recommend any oks that explain the motivations of cult leaders? I won’t ask *you* to explain Jordan’s motivations, though I’m sure you’ve spent time thinking aboout it, because it’s probably somewhat unfathomable even at close range. But I’m fascinated and bewildered in equal measure by someone even WANTING this kind of control over other people.
*books! Not oks. I have no idea why my word got eaten.
It is interesting reading your perspective. I can’t agree with all of your conclusions. There is still an attempt to minimize culpability here with the “we were just well-meaning fans!” defense. I think you mean it, but maybe my own life experience puts me in a place where it seems almost unbelievable.
I used to work with theonering.net. Andrew/Jordan was so scary and weird, none of us will ever forget it.
Maybe you don’t remember or weren’t there, but he tried to get to the actors through onering as well. It wasn’t just that he claimed to be someone he wasn’t, but he made explicit, vulgar claims about the sex lives of the actors. People can demand delicacy on the subject of Andrew/Jordan’s sexuality, but he showed no one else any consideration when it came to theirs. The constant need to get close to the actors is textbook stalker behavior. I guess people think it’s just what happens to actors, but Elijah Wood was really young, too. Didn’t anyone think of how this made him feel? And finding himself promoted as a guest at a show by someone who spent years lying about him? How is it not stalker behavior to pretend to channel Wood’s essence, and then spend years lying about his sex life, and then try to get him to come to you by roping him into a public event, wrapped up in false association with a charity?
Jordan kept trying to pass himself off as an insider, and convinced a lot of people of a lot of lies. He did all of fandom serious damage, and New Line got very jumpy about dealing with fandom. There was a lot of clean-up to do. I suppose the stalker never thinks they’re the stalker.
It’s not true that the actors were rich and could just go after Andrew/Jordan any time they wanted for his lies. There’s no doubt that Elijah Wood and Dominic Monaghan were slandered and libeled and were creeped by all this. It’s not harmless fan fun to tell all those lies.
Most of those actors had no money. Dominic Monaghan could not afford a phone, Billy Boyd never made any real money on those movies, Sean Astin had trouble making his mortgage, Bruce Hopkins was painting houses, Jed Brophy and Lawrence Makaore were broke. None of this is a secret, and they’ve said all of this years later in interviews. I spoke with both Jed Brophy, and he had nothing nice to say about this debacle. Not paying actors money you owe them, and taking up their time at an event which is so badly run as this one takes away from their livelihood. Conventions have to pay taxes, get business licenses, and you don’t get to use a charity to promote yourself without getting permission. No one gets to just put out a sign and declare “Fan club” and wash responsibility away. You’re really lucky you didn’t get into more official trouble. A good deal of the reason you didn’t is because Jordan’s dad showed up and convinced the authorities his daughter was mentally ill. It’s not that there was no case, it’s that the cops had a suicidal young woman on their hands, and they just wanted to get rid of it all.
I can understand that you, personally, didn’t mean any harm, and that Jordan/Andrew really meant to throw a convention, but it was all built on lies, and that is what fraud is. Even if the motivations were good you can’t make good things out of lies.
I still have a lot of pain about this, but not toward you. When someone mentioned this blog to me, I didn’t even remember your name. I doubt we’ll see eye to eye on the A) cult leader or B) scammer thing. I’m leaning toward C) All of the above.
“There is still an attempt to minimize culpability here with the “we were just well-meaning fans!” defense…Maybe you don’t remember or weren’t there, but he tried to get to the actors through onering as well.”
Yes, I remember we had some contact with TORn. I’m honestly not trying to minimize culpability, mine or Andrew’s; I’m telling things from my side and my experience. And you definitely have some good points.
“It wasn’t just that he claimed to be someone he wasn’t, but he made explicit, vulgar claims about the sex lives of the actors. People can demand delicacy on the subject of Andrew/Jordan’s sexuality, but he showed no one else any consideration when it came to theirs.”
This is a totally fair point. Maybe I’ve unfairly minimized the RPS angle of things. Its not at all uncommon in fandom, particularly LOTR fandom, but that doesn’t make it right. Plus, his claims of insider knowledge may have made it carry more weight. I guess I also forget sometimes that I’m the only one who was there through the entire story arc. To me, the BoE and Tentmoot stuff was at the beginning; his stories and lies went so much farther than that, but no one knows but me (and Sam and Diamond, for chunks of it.) I really owe everyone, including the actors, and apology for my part in that. Just because I drank the kool-aid doesn’t excuse that sick shit.
“The constant need to get close to the actors is textbook stalker behavior.”
Fair point there, too. And it does look like that from the outside. I guess living on the inside is what makes me say he wasn’t actually a stalker, because he *actually* didn’t give a shit about them beyond how his lies gave him power over us. And he abandoned that part of it so quickly. And maybe I’m not accurate in my assumptions.
“I guess people think it’s just what happens to actors, but Elijah Wood was really young, too. Didn’t anyone think of how this made him feel?”
Yeah, I have, and I’ve seen a lot about how it upset him a lot. I don’t know if that’s true or not; I’ve never made any kind of attempt to contact him, and given all the things that were biased or questionable about all this, I really don’t know. I did send a letter of apology to Sean Astin shortly after I left Andrew, but beyond that I’ve stayed as far away from LotR actors as I can.
“And finding himself promoted as a guest at a show by someone who spent years lying about him? How is it not stalker behavior to pretend to channel Wood’s essence, and then spend years lying about his sex life, and then try to get him to come to you by roping him into a public event, wrapped up in false association with a charity”
Okay, when you put it that way I can’t disagree. That was *incredibly fucked up* and wrong and sick. And I am really sorry that I had a part in it. That I believed Andrew just makes that worse. Christ. Ugh. I’m disgusted with myself all over again. I hate that I ever believed a word of it.
“Jordan kept trying to pass himself off as an insider, and convinced a lot of people of a lot of lies. He did all of fandom serious damage, and New Line got very jumpy about dealing with fandom. There was a lot of clean-up to do. I suppose the stalker never thinks they’re the stalker.”
I will defend *myself* against claims of being a stalker, but I will no longer defend Andrew, that’s for sure. I certainly was a creepy, fucked up obsesive fan, but beyond the events I did not have (or want) further contact with the celebrities. I still have no intention of contacting any of the actors, although I would certainly apologize and own my part of it if I ever was.
“It’s not true that the actors were rich and could just go after Andrew/Jordan any time they wanted for his lies. There’s no doubt that Elijah Wood and Dominic Monaghan were slandered and libeled and were creeped by all this. It’s not harmless fan fun to tell all those lies.”
Agreed, 100% on this.
“Most of those actors had no money. Dominic Monaghan could not afford a phone, Billy Boyd never made any real money on those movies, Sean Astin had trouble making his mortgage, Bruce Hopkins was painting houses, Jed Brophy and Lawrence Makaore were broke. None of this is a secret, and they’ve said all of this years later in interviews. I spoke with both Jed Brophy, and he had nothing nice to say about this debacle.”
I never thought they were rich, and I wish that someone besides Jeanine had gone after Andrew (and me!). Maybe it would have made getting away from him sooner possible. Maybe I could have repaired some of the damage. And I don’t have much nice to say about this “debacle” either. I don’t know how much of my writing you’ve read either. Jed Brophy in particular was nothing but gracious and kind to us at the time, and I am grateful for that.
“Not paying actors money you owe them, and taking up their time at an event which is so badly run as this one takes away from their livelihood. Conventions have to pay taxes, get business licenses, and you don’t get to use a charity to promote yourself without getting permission. No one gets to just put out a sign and declare “Fan club” and wash responsibility away. You’re really lucky you didn’t get into more official trouble. A good deal of the reason you didn’t is because Jordan’s dad showed up and convinced the authorities his daughter was mentally ill. It’s not that there was no case, it’s that the cops had a suicidal young woman on their hands, and they just wanted to get rid of it all.”
I will say it again: I wish that there had been more legal action against Andrew. It would have gotten his victims out. Diamond would have gotten out. I might have gotten out. I don’t think it’s an excuse, but it is what happened. And I don’t know what else I can say about it, honestly. And I know *now* the important legal things that you need to do to put on an event of that scale. I didn’t know then, and I was being lied to by Andrew, too, so I thought things were “taken care of.”
“I can understand that you, personally, didn’t mean any harm, and that Jordan/Andrew really meant to throw a convention, but it was all built on lies, and that is what fraud is. Even if the motivations were good you can’t make good things out of lies”
Agreed. But at this late date, what more can I do? I keep telling the truth, as baldly and openly as I can. I keep answering questions. I have continually attempted to accept as much responsibility as I am able to, given that I was *also* a victim. I don’t think that means I did nothing wrong, as I keep saying. But that part matters too. I would *never* *ever* *ever* have been involved with these clusterfuck versions of fan events if I had not been in Andrew’s control. And maybe it doesn’t sound like a punishment to you, but it really does hurt that actors I respected and liked hate and fear me. It’s humiliating and shameful and miserable to have that hanging on, year after year.
“I still have a lot of pain about this, but not toward you. When someone mentioned this blog to me, I didn’t even remember your name. I doubt we’ll see eye to eye on the A) cult leader or B) scammer thing. I’m leaning toward C) All of the above.”
I’m not trying to change people’s views. I didn’t expect many people to see things from my side. I am only telling my story, as it happened to me, from my perspective.
I respect these answers absolutely and thank you so much for taking the time to answer. As I said, I never held you responsible for this, and didn’t even remember your involvement. I really feel sorry for you and everything you went through.
It takes a lot of guts to come out here and I appreciate your direct and honest response to my statement.
I think you’ve been through plenty and I am in full agreement that I truly wish Andrew had been held accountable earlier. In a way, I think the punishment you’ve gotten from fandom is far worse than the quick break the legal system might have given you.
I wish you the best in your future. I mean it.
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I just wanted to point out in regards to the “is his art a scam?” portion that as some who likes to draw/sculpt, who uses tons of references, and pretty much all my friends are artists, his claim of the art being entirely his for the digital ones deeply offends me. The thing is, especially with references found on the internet, often those references come from other artists as well, or is copyrighted by the person who took the picture. Now, direct tracing is fine, but you really should credit the source. To not credit is in a way stealing that other person’s work. Doubly so if he’s making money off the digital work. To me, he is scamming people about how much of his art is actually his. It doesn’t matter if he can draw, because he’s claiming stuff that isn’t his as his. I’m not saying whether it’s legal or not, I’m just addressing the moral part of it.
His deviantart is so weird to me. Some of it looks directly traced, some of it looks like he looked at the reference, and drew without tracing (I do this a lot). Just, no credit anywhere. If he had took pictures himself, and used that as a reference, whether it was direct tracing or not, that would be fine. It would be his own work entirely. Though really, if I ever trace, I always mention it because I want the person looking at my art to like it for what I actually did.
Sorry for commenting again, but I wanted to point out this article about a scam “artist”: http://www.comicsalliance.com/2011/03/28/rob-granito-scam-artist/
Now, this guy is way beyond Andrew in terms of scale, but you can kinda see the similarities with what they do. The difference is that this guy’s goal is money, and Andrew’s is more followers.
By the way, I didn’t mention this before, but I really admire you for speaking out on what is obviously a painful and probably a bit embarrassing part of your life. I also admire you for reaching out to Turimel, even when things were still shaky between the two of you.
Abbey, I need to bust your chops a little here. Some of the things you have said to this DAYDian are not correct.
Many are a matter of opinion–where you say “cult leader,” I say “scammer.” You perceive a cult leader as doing things out of a desire to control others, while I believe that anyone who asks for money under false pretenses is a scammer. I think you and I can agree that Amy Player asks people to “donate” money under false pretenses. You can choose to call it “cult leadership,” and I can choose to call it “scamming.” I’m good with that.
However, when you said to Question 15 that no money was stolen in association with Tentmoot: that was not correct.
In December of 2003, “Jordan” called me on the phone and lied to me. “Jordan” said that all “his” arrangements with Air NZ to bring a bunch of actors to Tentmoot had fallen through. “Jordan” told me that hundreds of tickets had been purchased to Tentmoot, and that those door reciepts would cover the costs of airfares. “Jordan” said that Ticketron, the online agency selling the tickets, would not release the door receipts until after the event started, but “he” assured me the money was there. “Jordan” told me that if I put the airfare on my credit card, “he” would have Ticketron cut me a check for the full amount as soon as the convention started.
At the time “Jordan” told me these things, all of 32 tickets had been sold on Ticketron. They produced computer records to verify that fact. Most of those tickets were $40 single-day passes, not the hundred+ dollar weeklong passes.
“Jordan” asked me to buy something like $16,000 worth of air fares, while promising to repay me from door receipts totaling less than $1000.
This was not mismanagement. This was fraud. Deliberate fraud.
After a legal battle with Air New Zealand and my credit card company, the matter of these airfares was settled in a very unsatisfactory manner. Donna, the travel agent who helped me book the flights, ended up paying Air NZ a settlement of $7,000. The exact why’s and how’s of this are described in WAF. In a nutshell, I thought I would be stuck with that settlement, but my credit card company managed to legally finagle it onto Donna’s shoulders.
Donna is a small business manager and that kind of loss was VERY hard for her to bear. I was VERY ANGRY that Donna got stuck with that bill.
“Jordan” did not keep any money, so in a sense “he” didn’t steal the cash itself. What “Jordan” DID get was $7000 worth of airfare, which brought “him” 3 Kiwi actors to enjoy, manipulate, and exert power over for 24 hours. “Jordan” received $7000 worth of benefits, which “Jordan” never paid for–despite the fact that “Jordan” had promised to pay for them, and insisted the funds were available to pay for them.
That is theft.
I agree with you to an extent; asking for money under false pretenses can reasonably called a scam. And either way, Jordan is a liar who uses people (be it for power or money) so I think we’re ultimately saying the same thing. I drew the line not to defend him from claims of him being a scam artist, but to draw attention to the cult-leader aspects of him, and to underline that money is not his primary motivation.
“This was not mismanagement. This was fraud. Deliberate fraud”
I agree with you here as well. The fact that we got to the point where he used the fraud was the mismanagement.
“Donna is a small business manager and that kind of loss was VERY hard for her to bear. I was VERY ANGRY that Donna got stuck with that bill.”
Me too! I realize that doesn’t change things, but it’s true.
““Jordan” did not keep any money, so in a sense “he” didn’t steal the cash itself. What “Jordan” DID get was $7000 worth of airfare, which brought “him” 3 Kiwi actors to enjoy, manipulate, and exert power over for 24 hours. “Jordan” received $7000 worth of benefits, which “Jordan” never paid for–despite the fact that “Jordan” had promised to pay for them, and insisted the funds were available to pay for them.”
Again, you have a point, and I agree with some of the things you say. What *I* remember about the “3 Kiwi actors to enjoy…for 24 hours” is how miserable and awful it was. We had virtually no money left. Sam and Diamond (I’m only using those names to blog) Sam and Diamond bought enough food to feed them breakfast, while I spent the very last of our money to pay for their dinner. They were angry and we were humiliated; we did everything we could to make them comfortable and not-enraged. However, despite Jordan claiming that he felt the same as we did (horrified, embarrassed, uncomfortable and totally broke), he probably did enjoy it. And I’m sure he was trying like hell to manipulate them. I didn’t really notice, but Di and Sam and I were all in a lot of shock. Remember, he’d “attempted suicide” when the call came in that Tentmoot had exploded. I’ll write more about that “attempt” later, but it was enough that we called 911 and he really was locked up for 48 hours. It shook all of our faith and we were dazed and kind of lost, so I don’t know that any of us (aside from Jordan) really got that he probably loved that.
I don’t know if I’d call it “theft” per se but I’d sure as shit call it “dishonest” and “shitty,” and I don’t really think it matters if we agree on the precise definition of a particular word.
Also, although I understand your rationale, please don’t use the “scare quotes” around Jordan’s name or “he.” If you want to keep doing that on your own blog, fine, but please don’t do it here. I do not want this to become about his gender identity, as it’s pretty much irrelevant to the shit he’s pulled. Thank you
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